Urinary incontinence - older female (spayed) Options

[D.D.]

Greetings All: My female hound mix is about 85# and 13-1/2 years old.

We've been giving "Miss D." increasing dosages of Proin-50 and tonight, again, I find her laying in a pool of her own urine. She's ruined just all of the carpeting and most of the furniture in the house. Yet I often cannot get her to do her business outdoors, except on rare occasions, or if we take 45-minute walks, or if we're in a public place like the park at the river or in the city. There is absolutely no way I can take "Miss D." out enough to stop this--I'd have to do it continuously, as she leaks nearly all the time. I'm completely at my wit's end.

She will lick at her nether regions furiously, in an apparent attempt to stop the leaking or to clean up the leakage. I feel horrible about this, but I'm also unable to devote enough time to it. She is NEVER left alone, she can go out anytime she wants, but she hates being outside unless I am out there with her. But I have to earn a living, which unfortunately means being indoors on the computer.

The Vet is useless. We did a test to make sure there was no urinary-tract infection, and then one tab of Proin-50, then 1-1/2, now two per day (and it's expensive too; they won't let me buy anywhere except from them. Not to mention the bills each time for another visit. Our vet is very expensive). But two pills aren't working any better than one did.

So many horror stories--I met one woman this winter who had just moved here (mid-Atlantic) from Florida and was now locking her dog out in the freezing cold for this reason. I recommended the Proin...hope her luck was better than mine! And my neighbors put their dog down for this. That doesn't seem right to me. I love my girl, she's been a perfect dog for nearly 14 years. But I'm at my wit's end. The house smells like a urinal. Can anyone help us???

[D.D.]

Oh, I should add, in case there's any question: she's generally unaware of the leaking until the deed is done. We've never had the slightest issue with her since housebreaking, which itself was never difficult. It's medical not behavioral. She's been the perfect dog and she's used to being with us all time. So I can't separate her from her people. Like all dogs, she's a pack animal and very social. Since she's put in so many good solid years with us, I'd rather put plastic tarps down on the floors, I guess it's coming to that

[Viv]

UNF i went through the same thing with our old Basset. You can use diapers. As hard as it may sound----sometimes yes it is the time to say it is that time. You are at your wits end---and to have a dog locked out of the house at an old age because of something they cannot help---like the woman you talked about is ABSURD. I have had to put 4 dogs down due to certain issues the latest our well beloved 13 year old basset. Last October. UNF for us it has always been that sad situation none have gone in their sleep.You are not happy she sounds miserable----there is nothing else at her age you can really do.Sometimes it is better to let them go----than to start getting so frustated as you are with her right now. She was a perfect dog---do not diminish her in your head because she is old and cannot help herself.AND the vets can only do so much with an old dog. Honestly--we tried our hardest with our 2 hounds. But-----we finally realized--it simply was that time. I hope I helped.

[fleabag]

My old kelpie had a similar problem and she was given estrogen tablets..one a day and within a week she had dried up ..if it started again ..and it did, I could just start up the same pills ..they come in a bottle of 30 pills...and were not expensive...I'm in Australia so I'm not sure if the same pharmacy rules apply ..but it worked for us.

[JMM]

Have you tried DES for the incontinence?

[bruisersgirl]

Honestly I agree with Viv.
It may be time to let her go.
We all love our dogs and normally I would say try everything you can,but she is old. My friend had to put down his dog (a ridgeback)a year ago for a similar problem. His dog was 14 years old and had lost control of his bladder and every time he got up, it was so hard for him, he pooped.
They realised it was time,and had him put to sleep rather than ruining their momories of him with something he couldnt control.
She is miserable and tired,it might be the kindest thing for her now. Im sorry but I had to say it.

[D.D.]

Wow guys, she's a member of the family and I'm not at all ready to put her down. I'd only do that if she were not enjoying life, but she enjoys life tremendously. Thanks for all of the advice though. Today I'm just taking up the rugs and having them cleaned. Bare floors for a change, easier to clean.

Fleabag and JMM: DES appears to be synthetic estrogen. Are they the same thing as the estrogen pills you used Fleabag?? Definitely want to investigate.

I'm not being judgmental about the advice to put her down. I just reviewed my original note and can see that my tone was different. Today I haven't had to clean up any urine (except for the rugs, from previous days). So my mood's a bit better. I do know one thing: if and when the time comes, I'm going to give her sleeping pills in her favorite food, so her last experience is a happy one. THEN the vet can inject her.

[fleabag]

They serve the same purpose..my vet said this is common in older spayed girls ...my poor girl would wake up in a puddle so distressed but the pills fixed her up in less than a week ..and I had the leftovers to dose her myself if necessary. ( I must add I am a medical technologist, and a nurse, and my vet isn't just throwing drugs at me willy nilly...)Ask your vet ..I personally don't think it's time to give up on her yet ..
I also found she couldn't hold on overnight so well, and I made her a paper night tray..with a shower curtain and layers of newspapers which I placed at the front door for her ..if she used it ..easy to dispose of the used papers if not ..I just roll it up and stand it behind the door ...

[sdericksen]

Hang in there with your beloved pet. We just had our beloved Maggie put down for the same reason. However, she was only 7 1/2 years old. she had other issues also, could hardly walk anymore and cancer. The incontinence was the last thing. We probably hung onto her longer than we should have. She was a rescue dog that just took over our hearts. After a lovely service we buried her in our back yard. there is peace knowing she is close to us. Are we lame? Yeah, maybe so, but they are a part of our family. I'm rambling. Just do all you can and when that is done, do the right thing.

[sdericksen]

Oh, and fleabag has some awesome ideas.

[Viv]

All 4 of ours that have had to be put down were a very intregal part of our family.For 2 I waited to long--now I know that in my heart.The last Annie our Basset last October even tho she was sick for awhile it tore my heart out to lose her. BUT at least we can do that with our great friends--not let them suffer. It is the Quality of Life now when they get old not the Quantity. And yes you did sound as if you had had in in your original post--but thats ok--we all get frustrated. We do not have children I am 53---so our dogs mean a heck of a lot to us--(not saying they do not to all of you also)but I have no family close and our dogs are with me basically 24/7. They are a important piece of my life. here in our town LOL everyone knows the big old Surburban with the now Mastiff heads hanging out the window. Good luck with your dog.

[D.D.]

Thanks for all the advice guys & gals... tomorrow we see the vet again, ISO DES... I'm just hoping they don't want to do a ton more tests. We've done the UTI one a number of times now...always negative. I guess tests are a profit center just as they are in our own (human) health-care system...

I'm more than prepared to cordon off a couple of rooms with hard floors and just live in there with her. I need to think of some kind of washable blanket or something I can put down for (her) comfort. She's been the best dog in the whole wide world for a long long time and I can put up with a lot of inconvenience so long as she's not unhappy!

Thanks again everyone

[fleabag]

My vet didn't test Missy just let us test the tablets ..maybe just suggest that to your vet ..it will do the trick or not..

[JMM]

Well, it is a proper work up to rule out an infection, especially if something in the incontinence changes. Incontinence also increases the risk of UTIs. And in a case like this, a proper work up would also include a sterile urine culture as not all infections show up on a regular urine analysis.

[D.D.]

The vet wouldn't prescribe DES. Does anyone else have any ideas? This poor girl is flooding all over the floors most every day now

[Tech-no-Trainer]

Did the vet say why he wouldn't prescribe the DES? Are there other health issues? I would imagine he would want to at least try it unless there were contrindications for it.

[D.D.]

Did the vet say why he wouldn't prescribe the DES? Are there other health issues? I would imagine he would want to at least try it unless there were contrindications for it.

Well, he was a 'substitute' vet while ours was off. Anyway our regular vet is back and she's letting us try the DES. Wish us luck!

So far the main side effects seems to be lethargy & a lot of sleeping. I don't think that anemia (the scariest side effect) could be the cause so soon, so I'm hopeful. The incontinence seems to have abated considerably, however it's worth noting that our vet wants us to keep up the Proin at the same time. Synergistic effects and that; however I always want to use the fewest meds possible.

[fleabag]

I missed this ..glad she's responding ...I hope it's the answer...I found Missy was so much better after only a week ( she stayed on for a month) I was able to use the oestrogen intermittently instead of daily ..I'd let her go until she started to "leak" again ..then just a few days would "top her up"

[JMM]

Typically you do a loading dose daily for 5-7 days and then decrease to 3 times a week for a couple weeks, then once a week. Every vet will have their preference, but DES is not meant to be used daily.

As far as proin, it is pretty safe so long as your dog does not have problems with high blood pressure. The most common side effect is hyperactivity.

[K-10 Von Canein]

Perhaps a visit to dogfoodanalysis.com under their reviews section could help you in the future to choose a proper kibble for your pets. Many commercial foods contain ingredients that promote kidney failure. You can also find sites on the internet showing all of the symptoms of it, and hopefully rule out any kidney disease. I will stress my opinion on being a dog guardian here. When you became a dog guardian, it was a life time contract between you and your four legged friend to supply it with all of it's needs, including medical, attention, etc. I'm glad you're not putting your dog down if it wants to continue to live.